KNX/EIB ABB SA/S 8.6.1 Not FZE1065 chip inside?

[Goahead]

Hi everyone

One module ABB SA/S 8.6.1 just died at home.
I want to repair it, but the dead chip i never saw it before...
The mark says "ABB Blue 1.0DA 0006 0506".
I cant find datasheet anywhere. ABB does not respond!!

I want to repair the module, but that chip has 18 Pins and FZE chips have 20 Pins.

Please..need technical help...

Anyone have already repair such module?

Regards
Goahead

[Goahead]

Help Please

No one ever saw such chip in KNX product?

I Bought this ABB module in Germany...

Please need advice how to substitute ABB 18 Pins package with FZE1066 20 Pins package!

Thx in advance
Goahead

[makki]

It's very likely this is a futile project, even if you get the right chip.. Never opened an ABB SA/S but I'd guess a FZE1066 is not what you need anyway (why are you so sure it should be exactly this transceiver if its not inside the actuator now).
You could have a look here as there're plenty details about HW, but this leads to plenty soldering and programming a PIC, this is not what the average KNX-User is after

Makki

[Goahead]

Thank you Makki

I already open several EIB dead modules and i have repair them all.
If you check forum from the link you typed, you will find pictures of a dead Jung dimmer that i also repair using a FZE1065. (old one)

"(why are you so sure it should be exactly this transceiver if its not inside the actuator now)."
Cause im an hardware person..i understand electronics!!! and EIB/KNX circuits. I have a Osciloscope and im a curious person

Im shure that that IC is dead and need datasheet to be able to susbtitute it with one with more pins!

KNx circuits are all the same...they just change uControlers and what you do with their I/O

The most sensitive part in a KNX module is the transceiver that connects to the bus...not the uControler or the relays..just the transceiver.

That chip generates output voltage and makes the TX RX signals to bus and uControler (in this case one Atmega32).


Software is another history...

Goahead

[Gamma]

Hi Goahead,
I hope I'm a "hardware" person as well.
Got the device you are trying to repair a transformer?
If not you are on the wrong way, then you should check
the signals against an FZE1066, anyway.
But: afaik ABB developed own Transceiver chips,
not Infineon based.
"Dying" Transceivers are a very seldom problem!
Did you tamper the Bus by creating your own
PS/choke solution?

best regards, gamma!

[Goahead]

Hi Gamma

Yes...no transformer present so i will use the FZE1066.
I know that, but its also a 20 pin IC, so i still need info about the ABB chip to try to use a 1066 in is place.

I use an old Siemens power supply, Siemens N122 (5WG1 122-1AB01) 650mA.
I think Siemens power supply has already a choke inside it.

Is there any thing i could insert in bus to protect knx components?
Can i make my own protection?

Anyone has pin-out from ABB transceiver chip?
Regards
Goahead

[keldo]

Hi Goahead.

For the ABB "bluechip ...", why don't you ask the Konnex assoc. in Brussels ?
The SA/S 8.6.1 has definitely been certified by them, so they may have some technical documents avaliable.

If you want to add some protection to your bus participants, why don't you solder an extra bidirectional TVS/"transil"/"transorb" diode between the two bus wires, just before the transiever chip (FZExxx).
A P6KE43CA could be fine, I think.
The datasheet of the TP-UART chip shows such a protection but in a SMD package.

Keldo

[Goahead]

Hi keldo

thx for reply

KNX is an open standard, but not that open!!
There are NDAs involved..so ABB should be the one to release that information...But no luck so far.

P6KE43CA has a breakdown voltage from 40.9V to 45.2V maybe a bit high to 28V..30V bus voltage.
I guess P6KE36CA would be a better protection. (34V to 37.8)
Thanks for the suggestion.

No datasheet for "bluechip" so ill have to study the circuit and see where signals are connected to Atmega32

Anyone have pin-out diagram for ABB blue 1.0da?

regards
Goahead

[Gamma]

Hi Goahead,

No datasheet for "bluechip" so ill have to study the circuit and see where signals are connected to Atmega32

Anyone have pin-out diagram for ABB blue 1.0da?

No. I haven't got a pin out...
But YOU stated you've got at scope,
and your'e courious.
So please proof that.... can't be such difficult!
There will be some ground/buffer Pins, RX TX
and some stuff. Should take some three hours of work to do.
If you need more then you are not curious.

Gamma

[Goahead]

hi Gamma

Curious VS Time

- Half of my house is now in dark..bedrooms, bathrooms etc etc...
So you may guess that its very urgent to get that info.
Since i can wait that much for repair, i bought a new module.. i really need light in bathroom
In the mean time ill try to get all the pin-out info and ill post it here. It may help others in the future.

So my next question is:
Where can i buy only one FZE10xx chip? and off course..cheap

Kind regards
Goahead

[Robert]

Does anybody have a new insight on this? I also have an ABB SA/S 4.16.5S with a defective ABB ASIC. All passive components around the chip are ok (measured) but some of the power traces to/from the ASIC show signs of excessive heat. The power supply switches of the bus whenever I connect the actuator. The ASIC is not labeled at all but has the same SOIC-18 housing.

I would be interested in further information on the chip.

Especially I would be interested if I can use a "cheap" ABB/BJ bus coupler for replacing the ASIC.

What I found out so far:
Pin 1 - CREC? - small cap to ABUS
Pin 2 - CREC? - small cap to ABUS
Pin 3 - VAST (positive supply for relays)
Pin 4 - VCC for microcontroller (Atmel AVR mega32) or sense
Pin 5 - VCC for microcontroller (Atmel AVR mega32) or sense
Pin 6 - DFB/EMI? - small inductor to VCC - might be feedback to regulator
Pin 7 - VDD - buffer capacitor
Pin 8 - ABUS - for TX and power in?
Pin 9 - RX? - small trace (low power) to AVR ICP0
Pin 10 - RESET - small trace (low power) to AVR RESET - this is clear I guess
Pin 11 - SAFE? - small trace (low power) to AVR INT0
Pin 12 - NC
Pin 13 - TX? - small trace (low power) to AVR OC1A
Pin 14 - GNDBUS
Pin 15 - TEMP or ABUS/8 ? - small trace (low power) to AVR PA6/ADC6
Pin 16 - TEMP or ABUS/8 ? - small trace (low power) to AVR PA7/ADC7
Pin 17 - NC
Pin 18 - RBY? - connected to buffer capacitor by resistor - for "charging" capacitor?

Best regards
Robert

[hightower]

Hallo Robert,

habe hier das selbe Problem. Schaltaktor ABB SA/S 8.16.5.S mit
defektem ASIC. Unter anderem wird die 5V Spannungsversorgung
für Mikrocontroller und Peripherie nicht bereitgestellt.

Bin mir sicher, dass der Schaltaktor noch dem Austausch des ASIC's wieder
läuft. Leider habe ich auch keinerlei Informationen über den Chip gefunden.

Es wäre ganz hilfreich zu wissen in welchen ABB Produkten diese ASIC's
(ABB BLUE 1.0DA) noch eingesetzt werden.
Vor allem wäre das Thema Busankoppler interessant, da diese relativ günstig zu bekommen sind.

Vielleicht kann hier dir Foren-Gemeinde etwas Unterstützung leisten und Rückmeldung geben.

Gruß Jörg

[makki]

Nur am Rande, ich habe mittlerweile auch einen toten SA/S 8.16.5S aber weder Zeit noch Lust da irgendwas durchzumessen.. Bucht, nix Garantie o.ä.
Wenn ihn jemand gegen die Verandkosten als Ersatzteillager mag, melden.. KNX=tot, Handbedienung geht also die Relais sinds schonmal nicht..

Makki

[Robert]

Nur am Rande, ich habe mittlerweile auch einen toten SA/S 8.16.5S aber weder Zeit noch Lust da irgendwas durchzumessen.. Bucht, nix Garantie o.ä.
Wenn ihn jemand gegen die Verandkosten als Ersatzteillager mag, melden.. KNX=tot, Handbedienung geht also die Relais sinds schonmal nicht..

Makki

Hallo Makki!

Den SA/S hätte ich sehr gerne als Vergleich! Vielleicht kann man durch Parallelen oder Unterschiede irgendwie feststellen ob das ein Serienfehler ist. Habe zwar auch einen heilen SA/S 8.16.5S, aber an dem möchte ich nicht unbedingt mit externer Versorgungsspannung etc rumtesten. Ich schicke Dir eine PN!

Grüße & Vielen Dank
Robert

[Robert]

Hi alle,

animiert durch Makkis Sachspende habe ich mich noch mal hingesetzt um den Fehler zu finden. Dazu habe ich bei einem funktionierenden Aktor erstmal die Pins mit einem Logikanalyzer mitgeschnitten.

In Ergänzung zu den obigen Angaben von mir kann ich nun folgendes bestätigen:

Pin 9 - RX - high active (zum Schreiben einer '0'/dominanten Pegels also high)
Pin 10 - RESET - low active (wird bei Reset also low gezogen)
Pin 11 - SAFE - low active
Pin 13 - TX - high active
Pin 15 - TEMP or ABUS/8 ? - idle 20°C 29,66V Bus = 2,175V
Pin 16 - TEMP or ABUS/8 ? - idle 20°C 29,66V Bus = 2,108V

In Hinblick auf Jörg: Die Versorgungsspannung des AVRs beträgt 3,3V, nicht 5V!

Im "schlechtesten" Fall werde ich wohl mal versuchen eine FZE 1066 basierte Ersatzplatine zu fertigen.

Grüße
Robert