KNX/EIB Using switch 'Toggle' Function in practice

[tailsnaf]

Hi Everyone,

I am new to these forums, and KNX in general. I have a few interesting items which I hope someone can help me with.

I have 2-gang switches (rockers) - not sure if I can mention the manufacturer name here, so all I will say is the 2-gang version can be used to actuate up to 4 independent switches, via a 'toggle' function.

I also have 3-gang switches of the very same style - but I just found out that the application of the 3-gang version does not support toggle - so it only allows 3 independent switches to be used - kind of crazy, especially as they are more expensive!

So I have 2 things I wanted to ask:

1) How does 'toggle' work in practice with light groups -
i.e.
say I have 2 lights: light A and light B
and 3 switches to control them: light A, light B, and light a&b together

The idea here would be that I could turn on indvidual parts of a hallway by some switches, or else the whole hallway together by another switch.

The switches are setup to use the 'toggle' mode, so a single push button turns off and on the same light/group.
Does the toggle 'logic' reside in the switch itself, or in the actuator?

What would happen if I turn on light A, and then press the switch to turn on both A&B - will A go off and B on (i.e. the actuators individually toggle) ?

Do I need to send messages back from the actuator to the switches so they can know the status at all times?

Can anyone give me an example of how this should be done?


2) As I have the 3-gang switches without the toggle, is there a way I can 'make' the toggle function by using logic. I have a touch-screen with built-in logic - and I was thinking I could do:
say the top-button pair has 'on' and 'off' for group address '1' - but I want to convert this so pressing 'on' will instead toggle group address '2' and pressing 'off' will toggle group address '3' - could the logic be setup so:

logic received 'on' and 'off' on group address '1' - if it received 'on', it will send a 'toggle' command to address '2' and if it received 'off', it will send a 'toggle' command to address '3'.
Of course, in order for it to know how to toggle, it would have to remember the state - is this possible with logic?


I know these questions are very detailed. I would really appreciate any and all help - I have searched the web and this form as much as I can, and was not able to find any detail to explain this.

Thanks in advance!

[Michel]

The only thing you have to do is, to add to each switch the groupadresses of the other switches as well, so that all switches will always "know" the current status of the actuators, even toggled by one of the others.
If you are able to understand written german, read the following part out of our FAQ:

Ich habe mehrere KNX-Taster und einen Zentral-Aus-Taster. Warum muß ich um das Licht einzuschalten immer zweimal auf den Taster drücken bevor etwas passiert? Außerdem ändert sich die Status-LED nicht, wenn ich Zentral-Aus betätige.

Dem Tastsensor muß entweder die Adresse des Zentral-Aus Befehles als zweite Gruppenadresse (hörende Adresse) oder die Rückmeldeadresse seines Aktors mitgeteilt werden. Nur so erkennt der Tastsensor und dessen Status-LED, dass eine Zentralfunktion ausgeführt wurde.
Zum Beispiel so: Bei jedem Taster auch die anderen Gruppenadressen (rot markiert) eintragen, damit "er" auch Schaltbefehle der anderen Taster "mitbekommt" und beim nächsten Tastendruck in die "richtige Richtung" schaltet ->
GA für Licht 1=1/1/1 hinzufügen : 5/1/1, 2/2/2
GA für Licht 1,2,3,4=5/1/1 hinzufügen : 1/1/1, 2/2/2
GA für Zentral=2/2/2 hinzufügen : 1/1/1, 5/1/1

[AScherff]

If you are able to understand written german, read the following part out of our FAQ:

Or use google translation:

Google Übersetzer

[tailsnaf]

Hi Guys,
Thanks for that. I really appreciate the help!
I learned written and spoken German in school, but sadly with my lack of practice, google translate is very necessary!

I understand the concept of sending the status back to the switch, so the actuator status is always known.

From what you are saying - am I correct in assuming the the 'switch' internally keeps track of the state, separate from the actuator - and it actually sends 'on' and 'off' commands to the actuator, rather than a 'toggle' command?

In my case - where I have 2 independent lights, and a central control I would then have:

Basic Setup (no status sending):
GA Switch A: 1/1/1
GA Switch B: 1/1/2
GA Switch AB: 1/1/3
Actuator A: 1/1/1, 1/1/3 (so it receives commands from Switch A and AB)
Actuator B: 1/1/2, 1/1/3 (so it receives commands from Switch B and AB)

To send the state back to the switches I would then set:
GA Switch A: 1/1/1 and add 1/1/3
GA Switch B: 1/1/2 and add 1/1/3

Note: Switch AB does not 'listen' on any address - should it?

So if the following sequence of events happened is the expected outcome correct:

1) Start will all actuators off

2) Press Switch A - transmits 1/1/1 on, and actuator A turn ON (switch A records internally that A is ON)
Press Switch AB - transmits 1/1/3 on, and actuators A,B both come ON (switch A keeps the state that A is ON and switch B updates its state to say B is on)

3) Press Switch B - transmits 1/1/2 off, and actuator B turns off.


How do you setup some group addresses for listening - i.e. receive and some for transmit? Is it via different objects on the switch?

[Michel]

To send the state back to the switches I would then set:
GA Switch A: 1/1/1 and add 1/1/3
GA Switch B: 1/1/2 and add 1/1/3

Correct.

Note: Switch AB does not 'listen' on any address - should it?

Yes -> 1/1/1 and 1/1/2 to keep track of the other Groupadresses. The State of 1/1/3 will be ON if either 1/1/1 or 1/1/2 have sent the last command.

How do you setup some group addresses for listening

Just connect the object of a switch to an additional groupadress.
The first adress will be marked with "S", indicating that this is the adress used for sending commands, as only the first one is sending telegrams. The additional ones will not have the "S" and are only listening on the bus.

[tailsnaf]

Thanks Michel - I believe I should be able to make this work now.

As for the second item - converting the 3-gang rockers into 6 individual buttons.
Do you think the logic I proposed would work?

Of course, sending the status back to the switch would be an issue - as the switches only contain the status of 3 switches.

I'm very disappointed that the manufacturer allows the 2-gang version to be used as 4 push buttons, but the 3-gang one cannot. I'm sure it's just a software update on their end...

[Michel]

First: you may state the manufacturers name as well as the name and product id of your devices
Giving any tips or solutions is nearly impossible without these informations. Otherwise it will be like

logic received 'on' and 'off' on group address '1' - if it received 'on', it will send a 'toggle' command to address '2' and if it received 'off', it will send a 'toggle' command to address '3'

Yep, this should work.

Of course, in order for it to know how to toggle, it would have to remember the state - is this possible with logic?

As far as adress 3 is not used as a "central adress", listening on more than one adress, it should be not necessary to develop any logic for remembering the state, because the device will keep the last command sent.

[tailsnaf]

Hi Michel,

The manufacturer is Berker - and the devices are:
2-gang 'standard' - prod code: 7516 20 93
3-gang 'standard' - prod code: 7516 30 93

user-guides:
2-gang: http://descargas.futurasmus-knxgroup...8/7516209x.pdf
3-gang: http://descargas.futurasmus-knxgroup...1/7516309x.pdf

The 2-gang standard allows for all 4 buttons (top left, top right, bot left, bot right) to function independently, with individual switch and status objects.

The 3-gang standard seems to only allow the 3 buttons to operate as switches, and only provide 3 switch objects.

There are what's called 'comfort' versions available, which add more features, and in the case of the 3-gang, all 6 switches would be available then.

It is just strange that the standard 2-gang has this one very very useful feature over the standard 3-gang.

I purchased all switches (2 and 3 gang, based on reading the 2-gang's data sheet - and made the assumption the 3-gang would operate identically - but it does not).

As the 3-gang only has 3 switch objects, I imagine it would not be able to keep track of status for 6 'independent' switches.

[Michel]

Unfortunately you´re right.

and made the assumption the 3-gang would operate identically - but it does not

That was the initial error.
Before purchasing any KNX device carefully read the appropiate description of the application.

But: you may have the chance to make your dream come true by setting up you logic correctly