How to get rid of KNX and/or Gira

[AntarcticChristian]

Is the following text sufficient:

I would send: (small adjustments)

"Please send me the KNX project file (ETS export) and Gira Expert project files for my apartment."

Then you should get 2 files: one from the ETS and one from the "Experte" which contains the configuration for the homeserver.
In these 2 files you have ALL configuration for all devices and buttons.

[Pygmalion]

I would send: (small adjustments)

"Please send me the KNX project file (ETS export) and Gira Expert project files for my apartment."

Then you should get 2 files: one from the ETS and one from the "Experte" which contains the configuration for the homeserver.
In these 2 files you have ALL configuration for all devices and buttons.

Thanks Christian for the corrected text. I will be back to this forum when I receive the response.

[gekraft]

OF course, as said above, its necessary to understand all the functions taken over by the homeserver.
As I read it, its just temperature control four your bathroom (but be aware, tere might be some special control for the convector ...)

If its really just temperature control and eventually some clocks, you might think about a relay easy solution provided by MDT: Glass Central Operation Unit Smart

This could be the most simple, effective and lowest priced solution for you.
Regards Georg

[gbglace]

The question is how the convector is conncted to KNX, via nativ KNX-interface or is there a special interface LBS running in HS or via any kind of KNX-actuator to switch / adjust ventilation power.

[Pygmalion]

Hello all,

after a week they agreed to hand me over the documentation, if I sign this document:

This document establishes that:
• The handover of the KNX project in digital form was performed at the above-mentioned facility
• That the submitted documentation is complete, the latest updated version, and that it corresponds the current state of the building.
• The KNX project is written in .knxproj suitable for use with ETS5, as requested by client

With his signature, the owner of the apartment confirms that he is aware of the following facts:
• The KNX system, whose project documentation is the subject of this handover, is central communication protocol used on the facility.
• Proper operation of KNX systems is a prerequisite for the operation of most other systems installed and used on the facility.
• By using this documentation, that is by accepting it by the client, any liability on the part of the XXXXXX for any work ceases for the part or the whole of the KNX system.
• By using this documentation, or by accepting it by the apartment owner, any liability on the part of the XXXXXX for the operation of any other systems connected directly and indirectly to the KNX system, namely HVAC systems, measurement and logging systems, and the BMS apartment visualization system ceases.
• All responsibility related to the use of the subject documentation and its impact on the other above listed systems passes to the owner of the apartment

Now can you help me whether signing this document is OK? Does this include all information on system I need?

Also what is this liability bullshit? As far as I understand, I was always liable for the system, since I had to pay for the service each time something was wrong. What is their liability? Now they have to service my system, after that they will not have to? For money, of course?

(Edit: I removed the name of the firm for my protection.)

[Pygmalion]

Regarding home server, it seems that power supply died. Despite of UPS. But the cost is only 50 EUR for the unit and 50 EUR for replacement, which is far the cheapest service by this firm ever.

[SmarthomeSuedtirol]

If you're unhappy with the support of your local KNX integrator, the search tool on the KNX page could help you to identify an alternative.

https://www.knx.org/knx-en/for-profe...nity/partners/

[Pygmalion]

If you're unhappy with the support of your local KNX integrator, the search tool on the KNX page could help you to identify an alternative.

https://www.knx.org/knx-en/for-profe...nity/partners/

I understand that. My idea is to take KNX project from current KNX integrator and then consult others whether they are capable/prepared to take over.

But the question is: should I sign what they ask me to to get those files?

Of course I don't intend just to get files and start messing around myself.

[bramlangen]

The document appears to be fairly standard. It confirms you will get the latest KNX documentation, the 'as is' of what actually 'runs' at your apartment. After submitting the file(s) they obviously have no control anymore as to what happens to the configuration. Therefore it is only logical that their liability ceases. Strictly looking from that perspective: Yes, you can sign that document.

The document howver does not mention anything about the Gira HomeServer project file, which you also will need.

Normally, when on good speaking terms, the system maintainer will tell you (for instance by phone) exactly how the system is maintained, i.e. can it be accessed remotely and if so, how? What are the login credentials for the systems that need those? If ownership of the HomeServer is registered at Gira (the Gira Portal) then it needs to be transferred to the new owner/maintainer (you need to know this, and if registered there they need to agree to transfer ownership). They should also be able to tell you if they also maintain the router - after all, the router controls if remote access to the KNX/HS systems is possible and usually defines the static IP addresses, where those static addresses are needed.

The problem I see is that if you are not on speaking terms with the system maintainer, they may simply give you exactly what you ask for - and not the other information you may need to either maintain it yourself (which apparently you don't want) or to be able to provide another outfit with all required information and files.

[AntarcticChristian]

I do not know how it works in croatia, but in Germany it is quite clear:
You have paid for the service of programming the devices (KNX and HS part) and you own now the project file (and also the HS configuration file).
It has to be handed over as part of the documentation.
A lot of companies unfortunately handle it like your company. They want to put any problems out of their responsability.

Of course it is clear that if you change something and this part is afterwards different to the initial configuration they can charge it to you.

But as you explain, they always charged you even if the problem might have been their incompetence or bad knowledge.

What I can also see: They are only talking about the knxproj file. This file DOES NOT contain the Homeserver part.
This is a different file (can never be the same) and is usually a zip file. (which can be imported into the "Gira Experte".

I would sign this document and get rid of this company and hand the project file over to someone who knows (for example the systemintegrator from the forum who will be in croatia later this year). In the best case you will never have to do anything with this company in the future.

There are also possibilities to implement a remote access to the system (buth KNX and Homeserver) by using for example a device called "ise Remote access" device.
This allows a competent partner to make any modification from thousands of km away.

Edit: Bram was faster than me...

[Pygmalion]

bramlangen Very briefly, I don't think my KNX integrator can control my home server remotely, as my apartment's LAN was never connected to Internet. Furthermore, whenever there is a problem, they have to come in person. I am aware that if I connected my LAN/home server to Internet I could, say, control my temperature in apartment remotely, but I was never offered or explained such an upgrade by them or anyone else.

They definitely do not control the router - they never touched it. Router actually establishes WLAN within the apartment that is unconnected to LAN.

So I can't understand what exactly are they liable for and what will actually change if I take those documents? The only real difference I could figure out is that they will refuse to service my system. Which seems unlikely, because they are charging services anyway.

To rephrase, until I change something in KNX system myself or hire someone else to take care of my KNX system, are there any actual dangers for me of them giving up their liability?

AntarcticChristian So if I understand you right, the biggest problem is to transfer all necessary data and this part of the document should be definitely changed.

[bramlangen]

because they are charging services anyway

What do they charge you for? Fixed monthly or annual fee? Or only if something is changed, which they should only do if requested to do so by you.

What I gather from your story is that HFC 'manages' your system, meaning they know the 'as is' situation, and can make modifications or repairs when requested to do so.

what will actually change if I take those documents?

Once they give you the files this means that you (or someone else) can make modifications to the systems without them knowing it. In engineering terms, this means they no longer have ownership of the system. If they no longer control the systems, this then logically means they can no longer take any responsibility for the systems. Consider this: something breaks (a button stops working, the HomeServer does not properly control something anymore, whatever) and they would be called in to investigate. Their 'old' files may not be the 'as is' files, so their troubleshooting will be problematic. Assume they find something wrong in 'area A' (a piece of logic in the HomeServer) and fix it (using the 'old' files), then they would overwrite something that you or someone else changed in 'area B' of the HomeServer logic. Anyone would want to avoid that scenario, which means "I give you the files, so from now on you assume ownership and I have nothing to do with it anymore".

If control was only local, then you do not have to worry about remote access. Still, the LAN set-up is important for the HS to keep functioning.

are there any actual dangers for me of them giving up their liability

The only danger I see is if there is more to the system than what you have described, for instance if there is something that is central to all 50 apartments. If there is a link from the system in your apartment to something central (i.e. a weather station, entry system, door bell/camera), then you will no longer be informed if something outside of your system is changed, which means that for instance the weather information will no longer be 'live'.

[SmarthomeSuedtirol]

Just out of interest, did you talk to your neighbours? Are they facing the same issues with their KNX configurations and installed HomeServers?

[AntarcticChristian]

the biggest problem is to transfer all necessary data

yes. The problem for you would be to check if you have received all required files and if all files can be opened and are not corrupted in any way.

If I would be in your place, I would try to get an agreemenend with the person from the forum who will be in croatia this year and send him the files once you receive them. He can check if the files can be opened and if there is still something obvious missing (like a password,...)

It is very likely that nothing will happen to you KNX system once you have received the files (as the power supply in the HS has recently be replaced).

they no longer have ownership of the system

I would say more: "they no longer have the exclusive access to the system". As I suppose you are the owner of the system and the system is not loaned from the integrator.

[Pygmalion]

bramlangen I don't understand your argument. Let's consider this case: I buy a car. If I temper with brakes and then I have an accident, car manufacturer is free from liability, even if I made brakes better. [Also an expert named by the court is required to confirm that brakes were tempered with.] However, if I get documentation on the car's brakes, how does this remove car manufacturer's liability???

SmarthomeSuedtirol As I don't live permanently in this apartment, I do not know exactly what is going on. But from what I heard, many people are dissatisfied. Especially those with technical knowledge that know what to expect. Allegedly, one of the owners already switched to another KNX integrator a few years ago.

A decision to switch KNX integrator is not easy - since I am from technical background I can understand that some other KNX integrator who does not know the system as well as current KNX integrator knows it, might have troubles understanding it. If I understand you guys, changing KNX integrator should not be such a big deal, right? I see from https://www.knx.org/knx-en/for-profe...nity/partners/, there are about 100 KNX integrators in the city, but only 12 have two stars. So even if current KNX integrator would not want to service my system, I could still get someone else to do that, right?

AntarcticChristian I am definitely the owner of the system.