How to get rid of KNX and/or Gira

[GKap]

there are about 100 KNX integrators in the city, but only 12 have two stars

Forget about the stars! This is a very unfair classification of KNX-Partners, it does not really reflect the knowledge of this KNX-Partners. It gives preference to bigger companies, for small companies or single KNX professionals it is almost impossible to reach a high number of stars!

regards
GKap

[Pygmalion]

SmarthomeSuedtirol

I have send three KNX integrators in the city the question whether they would be prepared to take over my KNX system.

I got the immediate (!) reply from one of them that several other apartment owners in the same building already contacted them with the same request, but they had to turn them down, because current KNX integrator refused to hand over software!

They argued that programming everything from the scratch would be too costly.

So obviously the problem with this building and this KNX integrator is a well-known knowledge!

AntarcticChristian
ets3-user

Taking into consideration that information on the KNX system are currently not available, do you agree with me that it would be lost time to come and see the system in person?

[PeterPan]

Hello Pygmalion..

there is only one Possibility for you and unless you decide to to so, your other Possibility is to argue till the end of time.

--> Ask your KNX Integrator for an Offer to reconstruct the KNX Project. This will take minimum one day and you have to pay. This will hurt your Wallet. There is no way out.

Best regards, PeterPan

[AntarcticChristian]

it would be lost time to come

No. I think that during a one day visit an experienced systemintegrator can either recover / reconstruct the entire installation or work with the existing files which you would get from the existing integrator.

In any way: If anybody else will work on your installation the existing old integrator cannot do anything else anymore.

I would request the files (knx project file AND homeserver configuration export) from the existing "partner" (and sign this letter from them and never work with them again). Then invite / order ets3-user for an onsite visit. If he has the files in advance about the existing installation I am very sure that during the day of the visit he will leave with a working installation and most likely if you agree with a secured remote acces solution where you can control the access from outside or not.

[Pygmalion]

--> Ask your KNX Integrator for an Offer to reconstruct the KNX Project. This will take minimum one day and you have to pay. This will hurt your Wallet. There is no way out.

Hello Peter Pan,

which integrator do you have in your mind - existing or new? What exactly means "reconstruction".

I would request the files (knx project file AND homeserver configuration export) from the existing "partner" (and sign this letter from them and never work with them again). Then invite / order ets3-user for an onsite visit. If he has the files in advance about the existing installation I am very sure that during the day of the visit he will leave with a working installation and most likely if you agree with a secured remote acces solution where you can control the access from outside or not.

I think that would be a good idea ... if I actually lived in this apartment. Because it's possible that sometimes something will need to be done on the site. I am handy enough to replace/connect/solder something when asked from Germany. But the tenant of the apartment might not be.

I know I must be getting on a lot of people's nerves on the forum. I am not a KNX expert and I have a hard time describing my situation and what I want. This is why all this takes so long. SORRY ALL! But with my current KNX integrator, I need to be prepared for the worst case scenario, which would be : they give me knx files AND homeserver configuration (I will insist that this is included in the document) and then they stop answering my calls ... forever.

Will any of the 100 local KNX integrators be able to reconstruct everything from this data in a reasonable time for a reasonable price and solve the problem when it occurs? What is the risk of something going really wrong/bad? (And the negative response from two local KNX integrators is a bit scary.)

By the way, I learned from the local KNX integrator that according to his information, all KNX systems in the apartments share the intercom and the meteo station. So it's a matter of setting lights, blinds (easy), HVAC (difficult) and and connection to intercom/meteo station (unknown). I do not care about the audio system.

[AntarcticChristian]

replace/connect/solder something

I think there is nothing to solder....

Will any of the 100 local KNX integrators be able to reconstruct everything

They should have the knowledge. But nobody can tell you for sure.

In KNX there are 3 ways for your case:
- work with the existing project file and modify it
- start from zero and re-design everything
- use the recunstruction app from ETS and read-out the configuration from all devices (this does NOT work for the homeserver)

There are always a lots of scenarios what can go wrong.
Usually KNX is a VERY stable system with very few errors. (I know this might sound strange to you, but yes, it is the case. even for GIRA devices).

I could imagine for your case to have a spare switch connected to the KNX bus anywhere and this could be activated and programmed from remote.

But to be clear: We all here in the KNX user forum are very convinced about KNX. But we all know that something may go wrong. You can have a physical damage to a device (something falls down onto a switch,...), an overvoltage, another defect and this would lead to a malfunction or simple a single function not working.
If you want this to be replaced in a delay of about one day at low costs, you need to look for a provider in croatia next to your appartment. (who may not have much competences).
Or you take the "risk", ask for example ets3-user to reconfigure everything, remove the homeserver (as he might use another smaller and more adaequate and less complicated device) or even do not need it when he uses the right switch devices and have everything working. This might also run for the next 10 years without any intervention.

But there is never a guarantee.

[Beleuchtfix]

I know I must be getting on a lot of people's nerves on the forum.

Don‘t worry, everybpdy is entitled not to read your comments.

I need to be prepared for the worst case scenario, which would be : they give me knx files AND homeserver configuration (I will insist that this is included in the document) and then they stop answering my calls ... forever.

I would consider this as best case, once you have the software, other integrators could take over without any problems.

I think, you have to find out the legal state in Croatia, in Germany the SI has to hand out the software, it belongs into the ownership of the flat owner. In your country it might be different. Here you could sue teh old SI to hand out the programming files, even things like, „if you don‘t hand out the software, I let somebody else reprogram the flat and charge you for it“, but of course that is a haste and nerverecking. But some people become very friendly, once the realise that they lost their strong position.

Good luck
Florian

[bramlangen]

However, if I get documentation on the car's brakes, how does this remove car manufacturer's liability???

When you buy a car, you get an owner's manual. When the home automation of the apartment was first delivered, the owner (ought to have) received an owner's manual - the documentation on how to connect a smartphone or tablet to the HS. That is an apple-to-apple comparison.
The documentation you are now requesting from the current administrator/maintainer of the system ( I call that the entity that has technical ownership of the system) is akin to the software used by your car dealer to plug into the car and read out and manipulate whatever the dealer does with that car.
Once you have those files (and the ETS software) you or a KNX integrator can manipulate the system. From that point on the current outfit (HFC) can no longer be held responsible for what happens with your system.

You also wrote "one of the owners already switched to another KNX integrator a few years ago.". If I were you I would contact that owner, find out who he switched to, and contact that same outfit. That at least will help you to minimize the effort of a new integrator to become familiar with the local situation. Since you wrote that there are at least two central systems that provide information to your system, it will be important (for the new integrator) to be fully aware how those systems interact with the automation in your apartment.

As mentioned in another post in this thread I would definitely make provisions to be able to support the system remotely.

[PeterPan]

Hello..

now we are at page Number 5.

Maybe because i didnt read all your textes: Did you ask for KNX Files and HS Project Files? Do you own them?

Best Regards, Peter

[Pygmalion]

Hello..

now we are at page Number 5.

Maybe because i didnt read all your textes: Did you ask for KNX Files and HS Project Files? Do you own them?

Best Regards, Peter

Long story short, our current KNX integrator is problematic, many people in the building want to replace them but they refuse to give us the system files. Other KNX integrators in city seem unwilling to take on the job, probably because of uncooperativeness of our current KNX integrator.

The local KNX system controls the lighting, blinds, HVAC and audio system and is connected to the common intercom and weather station. (I don't care about audio system.) The common system is of course controlled by our current KNX integrator.

They have offered to give me the KNX files if I sign a document that they are no longer liable for the system (even if I do not change anything). I have not specifically requested HS Project Files yet because I did not know they would be required then.

My current plan is to find a local KNX integrator who would be willing to take over the system and then request both the KNX files and HS Project Files (even if I have to sign the document). I consider the local KNX integrator to be a safety net in case something goes wrong.

[starwarsfan]

Hi

I have not specifically requested HS Project Files yet because I did not know they would be required then.

Come on, it was said in nearly every posting that you need both files or archives! The project file for the ETS and the files for the HS configuration tool (Experte). So you definately should request them too!

[Pygmalion]

Come on, it was said in nearly every posting that you need both files or archives! The project file for the ETS and the files for the HS configuration tool (Experte). So you definately should request them too!

I requested the all necessary files before I started this thread. At that moment I was not aware of HS configuration files. They needed more than a week to respond and one of the reason I started the thread was exactly because this delay was suspicious. They replied after I started this thread, offering KNX files only, against giving up their liability.

Looking backward, yes, maybe I should have contacted this forum before first contacting them, but only now is this obvious to me.

[starwarsfan]

Hi

Looking backward, yes, maybe I should have contacted this forum before first contacting them, but only now is this obvious to me.

All fine, better now than never! Just wanted to point out that it is important to get those files.

[icaesarv]

-Get the files from the local Service Provider at any cost, even if it means that they stop answering you.
-Let ets3-user check the system at his next visit
- let him reconstruct the KNX Project whole Apparatment without the HomeServer
-Worst case that some HS connected devices have to
-Make the KNX Project remotely accessible till for future Diagnostics. Once you move in, you can deattach this Unit and return to being off Grid.
Pro is, you can let someone remote access your Appartement for Diagnostics and you will not have to rely on this specific service Provider.

If you reconstruct the whole wiring back to conventional House wiring, it will cost you more than that. A lot more.



Br,
Beschoy