KNX/EIB Street portal: Request for advice

[Warichet]

Hello,

I'm willing to install a street portal (Straßentor).
Picture
The portal is 115m from house, width: 4m, with 2 wings (Flügel) 2m, 95Kg each.
My first idea was to simply use a "Jalousienaktor" but by reading the forum, I understand there is a whole problematic around this topic.

First, I've to select the type of motor ad-hoc for this particular case.
Second, I want to integrate it with KNX.

I see 2 issues
1) open the portal, remote (from inside the house) when someone rings the door bel, hence the idea of a "Jalousienaktor" but I realize now that it is inadequate for security reasons. So I've to interact with the motor control box.

2) open the portal from inside the car while coming from the outside, via a radio remote control.
I've done a similar thing for the Hörmann garage door, but there I bought an optional box (UAP) to convert from radio to TP KNX. But here ?!?

The small side-door will be unlocked with a digicode.

Anyone wants to share a practical experience,
recommendation about the type of motor,
management of the feedback for the Visu,
a pointer to ad-hoc reading ?

It's impossible to download each document and study it, hence a recommendation for a similar case would be much appreciated.

NB: the portal is new (waiting since 6 years in the garage) the side walls and pilars have to be build. I'm at step zero: making plans and drawings, trying to do it right first time.

[MikeMelga]

Warichet,

I didn't understand exactly your problem. I am no KNX expert but this is what I think:

What is important is the gate's control box. Most control boxes should have:

- a contact closure to operate the gate
- a contact that actuates when the gate is in operation (for an exterior light, for example)

Using just these two, you can connect the first to a switching actuator to open the gate, and the second to a potential-free binary input to 'see' when the gate is opening or closing. The gate would also work normally with the remotes.

[Warichet]

Hello,

- a contact closure to operate the gate
- a contact that actuates when the gate is in operation (for an exterior light, for example)

Fully agree. That's what I've learned by reading several posts.
So far, I haven't found the adequate device. I would appreciate a recommendation or feedback from a practical installation.

[MarkusS]

Check "KNX A2-B2" from Elsner http://www.elsner-elektronik.de/knx-aktor.html

[Warichet]

KNX Aktor Elsner Elektronik[product_uid]=1057&cHash=1e5604a681327ca51435357cf8dd1c55

I failed to make myself clear. I mean I haven't found the ad-hoc motor device, yet.
Thank you Markus.

[MarkusS]

Something like this Drehtorantriebe for a swing gate perhaps?

Sommer is rock solid stuff, I've 2 garage door opener since 2004, my in laws have 4 since 2005 (all mounted by me), never ever had a problem with them.

[Warichet]

Something like this Drehtorantriebe for a swing gate perhaps?

Yep

Sommer is rock solid stuff

Indeed, they have an excellent reputation, but in this particular instance, do they fullfill the requirements ?
-separate contact for opening
-separate contact for closing
-availability of status information; i.e. open/close

I've also a Hörmann garage door, with a radio remote control. It would be fine if I could use the same remote control for both doors.

Also, I've read that portals with wings of 2m (or >) may need an electric slot to keep both wings in place. Any comment ?

[multimedia]

Cher Raymond
(je continue en Anglais pour que les autres qui ont contribué à ce sujet peuvent suivre également),

If you intend to buy the drive and the electronic seperatly, here some experience from my side:
As you know in France the Came systems are quite familiar. However I had to change the controller twice because of lightning stroke.
So finally I decided to do the controller myself, as I wanted to integrate it also completely in KNX.
So I used a LOGO! with KNX interface. As radio remote I have chosen a Zamel IP56 system that is sold here:
ZAMEL 2-Kanal Funkschalter-Set RWS-212 bis 300m Außenbereich IP56 - 230V - Reichardt Industrie Componenten
The contacts of the Zamel remote are both connected to the inputs of the LOGO, so they may be used for any bus function - or of course also for your small side door.
All together was about 350,- Euro, and I could even continue to use my Came drives, that are still working fine.

With the LOGO you are completely free with all information you want to exchange with the bus. (Define a KO for only open, only close, feedback of state and movement...)

If you are interested in this solution, just let me know. The LOGO programming software is free and you can have a copy of my program to start.
Greetings from the Côte d'Azur

[Warichet]

Something like this Drehtorantriebe for a swing gate perhaps?

I like the idea, so I've investigated a bit further.
I've contacted Sommer France, asking if the Twist model offers separate conacts for opening & closing and other contacts for status feedback.
Here is the reply:

Pas de commande séparées pour l’ouverture et la fermeture, pas de contact permettant de savoir si le portail est ouvert ou fermé.

No separate command for opening and closing, no separate contact to check if the portal is open or closed.

I'm surprised and disappointed. Too bad
Back to square one and restart the whole game

Maybe someone has another recommendation ?

[anlo007]

If you are using Hörmann for the other door, you should ask them for Motors and the rest. So that you could end up with one remote control for both doors.

They also have separate radio-control devises on the same frequency range. I use them for my outside door and run them through a LOGO to operate the door with the logo outputs.

I have posted some pictures of my door earlier, but if you are intrested I can post them again.

Just to give you some ideas, what you can put into the door-gates (pillars):

1. opener for the door, wireless and with chip-card reader
2. Plug for 240 V via an Actor or Switch to switch it off when not used
3. Post-box with sensor
4. Nr. Plate with LED backlight at night
5. Red LED in nr plate, when letters in Post box
6. red blinking light -warning before door starts to move
7. Light to iluminate the entrance-way into your drive (bright)
8. small LED lights for the driveway all evening until going to bed
9. door bell with camera and voice-station (in our case hardly ever used)
10. camera along the drive-way to show also the number-plate of a car in fromt of the gates, or someone standing in front of the gate.
11. 2 light-beams across the driveway to register, when someone comes through the open gate. In the visu of the EibPc I can choose, whether a light is switched on an off or the bell rings when someone comes through the gate (which is normally open all day).
There are 2 beams, so that they are not triggered by birds, cats , heavy rain or snow so easily.

Just as a list, what we have put into our gate.

We tried out to detect the position of the door by the used currency but we ended up with two switches for open and closed, it was easier and safer.

The 2 beams stop the door from closing, when something is in the way, but it can open at all times. The door should have a sensitve beam at the front end, so that it will stop, when hitting an obstacle.

[Warichet]

Hello Andreas,

If you are using Hörmann for the other door, you should ask them for Motors and the rest.

You hear me thinking I was just wondering why not look at Hörmann, although a bit late
This brings again the main questions about the separate switches for closing and opening plus the separate status feedback for the door position closed/open. Are those available on the Rotamatic ?

if you are intrested I can post them again

Yes, please.

Just to give you some ideas, what you can put into the door-gates (pillars)

I've made a plan (yes, it happens ) and come to the same conclusion.

with chip-card reader

I've opted for a digicode (encoded keyboard)

Post-box with sensor

Also in my plans. How have you done it ?

Red LED in nr plate, when letters in Post box

Chic !

door bell with camera and voice-station

Which one have you selected ? I was thinking about a SIP device to be compatible with the other VoIP phones and Asterisk. I haven't found a nice solution yet, with easy integration into KNX, so your feedback is welcome.

There are 2 beams, so that they are not triggered by birds, cats , heavy rain or snow so easily.

I'm currently using the Velleman Twin Photobeam Detector hooked to an US/U (115m). I'm going to re-use it for the same purpose as you.

we ended up with two switches for open and closed

Did you install and wire those extra switches or did you get the contacts from within the motor controller board ?

The door should have a sensitve beam at the front end, so that it will stop, when hitting an obstacle.

I think they have it all by now, maybe part of the regulation.

Thank you in advance for your comments and sorry for the (too) many questions, but the topic is hot for me

[anlo007]

Are those available on the Rotamatic ?

I run my door just with a LOGO plus KNX-Connection, I do not use the Hörmann device, just the Receiver for the wireless control.

I've opted for a digicode (encoded keyboard)

We all have wireless control-boxes in our cars to open the gate. If my children have forgotten theirs, they can also open it with their iphone via wlan and eibpc-websurface. So the opener is only for those, who help us on the farm, and they have a chip for time-control anyway. The chip reader is hidden underneath the post-box, so that you normally do not see it.

A digicode is certainly also a good way to do it, but I have problems to remember figures, that is the reason, why I would not use them, but this is personal. At our house-door, we have a finger-print opener as well as a chip reader.

Also in my plans. How have you done it ?

A photo of the letter-box is encluded. The Box is mounted to the side of the pillar, and the sensor for post is mounted in the wall of the pillar. The pillar is a square-tube, were all the electric is inside.

You only need the sheet of metal on the button of the box, so that the letters fall a bit sideways across the light-beam of the sensor. The opposite wall is reflecting the light, when there is no post in the box.

Which one have you selected ?

You can see the one, we have selected, but it is hardly used, as we are living on a farm, and normally the gate is open all day. The unit has no connection to KNX or other devices and it is just working. We had a lot of problem to find one, which works at all, because the distance between the gate and the house is app. 60-70 m.

I'm currently using the Velleman Twin Photobeam Detector hooked to an US/U (115m).

I use a single beam unit with IR-light on one side and a receiver on the other side. (Conrad 504991-76)
And form the same supplier (but not in the actual Conrad catalog) a reflection one in the post-box.

Did you install and wire those extra switches or did you get the contacts from within the motor controller board ?

I have no motor-control box, just a LOGO with a capacitor and two output-channels. I have taken the position from the software in the LOGO to start with, but out in the countryside, we often have short cuts in our power-supply, and afterwards the LOGO did not know, in what position it was before. When someone tried to open the gate in the morning, it started into the wrong direction, and because nothing happend, my daughters kept on pushing the button until the motor-overload tripped out, but the gate was still closed. So I decided, 2 switches are more relaxcing than a panicing daughter.

I think they have it all by now, maybe part of the regulation.

If the contact is there, you can also wire it into the LOGO and use it there for safety reasons.

If you want more detailed photos, just ask, which detail you want.

[multimedia]

I have taken the position from the software in the LOGO to start with, but out in the countryside, we often have short cuts in our power-supply, and afterwards the LOGO did not know, in what position it was before.

Hi Andreas,
The LOGO! may keep the last position in memory, even with a power failure. You just have to check this option in the parameter of the FlipFlop.

[anlo007]

Hi Andreas,
The LOGO! may keep the last position in memory,

The whole program was a bit more complicated because I wanted inputs for determined open and close as well as toggled inputs for wireless controls etc.

And the time it takes for opening and closing varies in summer and winter and after a stop while closing etc. So the motor run against the end-stop for too lang on several occasions and so on. It was all cured by the end-switches. As there were some spare Inputs in the LOGO free, it did not cost much at the end and cured all typ of problems.