Busch-Jaeger 6197/13 dimmer problem

[JuPeLoven]

Hi,
Deutsch unten.

I have experienced problem with a Busch-Jaeger 6197/13 4-fold dimmer.
I have in total 3 of the Busch-Jaegers and I have on one of them problem with the out put...
I can't not turn the lights off.
When I turn lights off they come back on after few seconds again.
Same when trying to dim the lights after few seconds lights go 100% on again. Have someone experienced similar behavior with the Busch-Jaegers?
How was it fixed?

Sorry for the English but I couldn't find any good English web sites to ask these question. Google translation below.

Thanks you and best regards,
JuPe

__________________________________________________ ___________

Hallo zusammen,
Ich habe Probleme mit einem Busch-Jaeger 6197/13 4-fach Dimmer erlebt.
Ich habe insgesamt 3 des Busch-Jaeger und ich habe auf einem von ihnen das Problem mit sich bringen ...
Ich kann nicht nicht die Lichter ausmachen.
Wenn ich Licht auszuschalten sie kommen wieder auf nach wenigen Sekunden wieder.
Gleiche, wenn sie versuchen zu dimmen die Lichter nach wenigen Sekunden Lichter gehen zu 100% wieder ein. Bitten Sie jemanden, erfahrene ähnliches Verhalten mit dem Busch-Jaeger?
Wie wurde es behoben?

Dank Ihnen und den besten Grüßen,
Jupe

[Michel]

You are welcome to ask and answer in english!

This behaviour looks like a wrong use of read-flags in connection with more than one actuator in a group and more than one group address in that actuator.
In this case a READ-telegram on the switch or dim group adress will read the state of one or more actuators in that group. And in this case, if the answering one is ON, your actuator and all others reacting on that group-address will switch ON again.

The correct way is:

• do not put Zentraladressen (central adresses) used by more than one actuator at first position in ETS (sending address)
• in case you have only one group address -> only ONE actuator should have set the READ-Flag.

Much better is to use the special "State-Objects". Unfortunately these are not available at all devices.

[JuPeLoven]

Thanks Michel.

I'm not using read-flags.
For those outputs that are not working I'm not even using them in any groups.

I did a bit more testing today...
I factory reseted the dimmer (no address in ETS) and then manually turned the light off.
Behavior is exactly the same. Light turns off and after 1-2 sec light comes back on. There is nothing that could turn it on... not from ETS bus at least. So I'm starting to suspecting that the two dimmers are faulty.
But what are the odds that two out of three dimmers are faulty.

I can't find any setting with in the dimmer that could do that kind of behavior either... So I think that my only options is to contact the seller.
Or do you have other good ideas?

Cheers,
JuPe

[vento66]

Please give us some screenshots from the settings in the ETS.

[JuPeLoven]

I'm starting to be convinced that the dimmer is broken.
I took it out from the system and gave it 12 volt so I could operate it manually.
I did factory reset on the system and then connected light pulps to the broken output and working output.

Output 1 (working):
I turned light on manually and turned off.
There was no problem at all.

Output 3 (broken):
Light on already, tried to manually turn it off.
Light goes off but goes back on by it self after 1-2 sec.
So not able to turn lights off.

It's not connected to ETS and the system is factory reseted.
Can't think of anything other option then it's broken or there is some internal programing that doesn't reset with a factory reset.
I think it's strange though that it turns the output off first and after that comes back on by it self. It's like something would turn it on again?
It shouldn't be possible now when it's not connected anywhere...

[JuMi2006]

Try to disconnect for a 15-30 minutes from power.
- unload in ETS
- Factory Reset on Dimmer
- completely new Programming - step by step

The dimmer from Busch-Jäger/ABB are a little bit like a diva ;-)

I reanimated my dimmer on a complete new and empty KNX-Line (KNX-test-case) after a power off for 30 minutes.

[Michel]

But it is still connected to the bus. Please make some screenshots of your parameters and post the content of ETS group monitor.
I am not sure that the dimmer has a defect.

[JuPeLoven]

Ok, I have figured out the problem...

Problem is energy saving lamps (light pulps).
It somehow mixes up the dimmers output where the energy saving lamp has been and doesn't turn totally off (open the relay off the output). Even after taking energy saving lamp away same problem persist with normal lamp.

Here comes my theory why:
When there is no load on the dimmers output and output is switched OFF then there is almost full voltage on the output (227 volt).
When the dimmers is turned ON then there is ~230 volts.
Energy saving lamps are not creating enough load on the output to totally pull down the voltage (open the relay totally) of the output and therefor light comes back on again.
Funny thing is that when you have had energy saving lamp connected to the output and change it to normal (old fashion) lamp it still has the same problem.
I didn't believe it so after I got it working I put energy saving lamp back into the output again and the same behavior came back. Then I put normal lamp back to it again and the problem persist. So I have to do following trick again to get it working again.

There is a easy fix for the problem.
Put a normal lamp into the output and disconnect power cable from the dimmer for a moment (you can leave the 12 volt BUS connected). If you have a voltage meter you can measure the output what you have had problem with and when the voltage has gone down close to 0. Then you can put power back to the dimmer and then the output will work again. Don't turn off current from the input of the problematic output. There need to be current so that it totally opens the relay.
No need to delete in EST, re-program, factory reset or any other reset of the dimmer. They wont help.

I guess the energy saving lamps bought by my wife are some cheap ones. Anyway they can't be dimmed so why use dimmer for that
Not sure if there energy saving lamps that can be dimmed and how they would work with these dimmers...

Thanks to everyone for trying to help.

[Michel]

I do not have the description available, but newer dim actuators often have a parameter to detect the type of connected load automatically. That is the reason for the voltage you have measured.

Although your energy saving bulbs are not dimmable you may change that parameter to a defined load. That should fix that behaviour in future.

[JuPeLoven]

Thanks Michel. That's good to know.

[ctr]

Also have a look at the firmware version. For earlier versions (up to 1.4?) the automatic grouping function is broken and this leads to similar behaviour you are describing. I also had this problem and after a firmware upgrade (unfortunately not possible via ETS but only with a special BJ tool) it is gone.

[Norbe]

Have you looked at the LED´s in front of the 6197/13 ?

I have the same problem with the same device from ABB. When teh LED´s are flashing five times in a row, then there is a problem with the Installation, so say´s the documentation.
We tried to find the mistake, then we found an cable, when this was attached, the problem appeared.
But measuring the cable, it was alright.
The hotline told me to look for Firmware and Application, but it was alright. Now i´m waiting for ABB to do anything, but they don´t.
About this i´m interested in this theme.

P.S.: We had no LED´s on the channel, there are dimmable Halogen-Trafos. That should work.

[JuMi2006]

5 times flashing should be internal error when i remember.
Try diconnect from Bus and power for minutes and factory reset - i unmounted the dimmer and tested it on a new empty line -> working.
After remounting everything was o.k.

[Ripon]

Hello I am Ripon here, I have problem with UD/S 13-500. When i am try to connect with bus it not connecting. Other device are ok. so What should I do concern me. thanks