What's the alternative to the ABB ABA/S1.2.1 Logic Controller?

[Maruder]

What's the alternative do we have to the ABB ABA/S1.2.1 Logic Controller? The ABB module itself is easy and intuitive to program thanks to its graphical interface. Unfortunately, it has been unsupported for two years, and constant crashes have forced me to look for a replacement. Any suggestions? I also have the B.J. Control APP, but its logic isn't capable of handling what I created on the ABB. I also have the Comfort Touch Panel, but the logic sheets are rather incomprehensible to me, and without a simulator, I can't create anything except simple connections. The only option left is the Gira L1 (an expensive solution), and it's hard to spend that much money without knowing its capabilities. How exactly is it programmed? From ETS or GPA? Best regards, Darek.

[concept]

ABB ABA/S1.2.1 Logic Controller

Yes, this thing is a real piece of crap and it's an outrage how ABB is letting its customers down!

is easy and intuitive to program thanks to its graphical interface

agree 100%

Alternatives

• L1 or X1, when you need at the same time a small visualisation. You design the logic in the GPA (Windows program) in a nice graphical enviroment, similar to the ABB logic module, but probably more powerful.
• The the Gira HS is the Ulitmate logic machine without limitations. And a powerful visualisation too. However, the learning curve is steeper.
• The Node Red has a nice graphical interface and I think it's powerful. But I was not working with it...

[Maruder]

this thing is a real piece of crap

Thank you for your reply.
I could tolerate these device imperfections if it had a remote restart or configuration reload function. I have to go to the distribution board and reset it every time. I tried to do this remotely by cutting off the power for a minute, but sometimes the device reverts to address 15.15.255 and is no longer accessible. Getting back to the Gira L1. I'm currently reviewing GPA and I'm not sure how to import a project from ETS. At what point do I have access to the L1 configuration? Once it's online? I'd like to see what logical connection options I have before purchasing. And the most important question is, can I create the logic shown in the attached screenshot? It looks chaotic, but it works 100%. You're referring to the Gira HS, so you mean a device costing €4,000. I probably won't use this option because no one can guarantee it will work for 25 years, and the programming process itself is probably not easy either.

[Punker Deluxe]

You can it import there:

Screenshot GPA.png

[Maruder]

So "Open Menu" - then import.... Well, yes, but the "import" option is grayed out, inactive.

[concept]

I'd like to see what logical connection options I have before purchasing. And the most important question is, can I create the logic shown in the attached screenshot?

Okay, you're really building some complex logic. And dealing with that ABB lemon—I admire your patience!

I can't really assess the limitations of the L1 and X1 regarding logic elements. I've only ever built simpler logic on the X1, and that was quite a while ago. Please note that the L1 and X1 also have limitations on the number of group addresses: Up to 480 data points can be used in a project (300 KNX group address data points, 180 freely available device data points). This can be expanded, but it costs extra.
If I remeber right, the L1/X1 has a offline simulator in the GPA.

ou're referring to the Gira HS, so you mean a device costing €4,000.

This is maybe the list price. At Voltus.de, it costs €2,217.16 plus VAT. I think, they also deliver to your country.
The HS has no restrictions regarding the number of group addresses and logics.
The HS has a live view, you can see, what they do when they are running. And maipulate inputs in the logic sheet.

Other option with a graphical logic interface:
Siemens LOGO! with the KNX-Interface. In the past, I was using it frequently, but I also hat with older firmware some stability problems.
The other problem is, that LOGO! is as programmable logic controller, and the behavior is not telegram based like KNX. So you have to configure inputs and outputs and the logic carefully. The good thing: it's not expensive, international language support and there is a off-line simulator and a live view.
For new things I use only the HS.

[concept]

So "Open Menu" - then import.... Well, yes, but the "import" option is grayed out, inactive.

No idea why, perhaps it's works only together with a real device? Perhaps somebody else can help on this point?

[Punker Deluxe]

No, you need no real device for the GPA. The import of the ETS file must be in a new project. Open the project and then you have an folder/tile Data Points. there you can import. Which version of GPA and ETS?

[Maruder]

I spent the weekend getting to know the Gira GPA. The most important thing for me is the L1 logic module. From what I've determined, I could rebuild my ABB logic. Unfortunately, due to the limited availability, I have to invest in a Gira HS. It's an expensive Christmas present for myself. I have a few questions for owners of this device. - How does the device behave after a power outage? Does it remember values? - How does it behave after a restart? Does it recreate the entire logic, or wait for telegrams from the network? - I'm missing timers in the logic blocks. How do I create them? Based on what? The "DATE&TIME" block is completely unclear to me at the moment. What could I use it for? How do I generate a function that sends me a "true" telegram at 11:00 PM? I'm sure there will be more questions. I'd appreciate any advice. Darek.

[concept]

I have a few questions for owners of this device.

How does the device behave after a power outage? Does it remember values? How does it behave after a restart? Does it recreate the entire logic, or wait for telegrams from the network?

You have different options: You can specify on every GA, that the HS read it at start or that the GA value is stored remanently. There is also a remanent logic element.

I'm missing timers in the logic blocks. How do I create them? Based on what?

There are some timer functions, If it's not included in the delivery, you can also find many interesting logic functions here in the download area. Then in the Quad Client (QC), you have some timer functions, that you can easy edit during the runtime.

The "DATE&TIME" block is completely unclear to me at the moment.

For me too at the moment and I'm too lazy to check it now

What could I use it for? How do I generate a function that sends me a "true" telegram at 11:00 PM?

How I wrote before, trough a logic module or the QC

[hyman]

Unfortunately, due to the limited availability, I have to invest in a Gira HS

Are you saying you can't buy an L1 or X1 where you live? I still have a used L1 that I don't use any more since I upgraded to an X1 ...

I also think that with the L1/X1 you will be able to simplify your logic quite a bit, using the Equation Evaluator (and potentially other) third party component(s). That wiill likely be necessary to fit all the logic sheets you have into the limitations of the L1.

[Maruder]

Interesting offer. Send me the price for the device in a message. I'm expecting at least 50% less. I'll probably go with the L1, but I also have doubts about whether I can recreate my logic. See the screenshot below. I'm using 450 group addresses on one device and 80 on the other. Unfortunately, I stopped developing further due to constant device freezes. I can only use 150 data points in the L1. That's not enough. Yesterday I fired up Expert 4.13. I opened the logic and realized I probably won't be able to handle it! So, the only option left is the L1. The question is whether the HS will connect to the BAOS 771 KNX IP router, or do I need to buy a dedicated one from Gira. Today I read that the HS will require routers with security functions in the future. A quote from the help: Support for the KNX interfaces 'BCU2 / FT1.2', 'S&P', 'KNXnet/IP routing (without KNX Secure support)', 'BCU2 / FT1.2 -compatibility mode-', 'USB (pre-2019, without KNX Secure support)', and 'USB (without KNX Secure support)' will be removed in a future version. This means further expenses. Smarthome by Tuya is much cheaper.
Who can convince me to buy Gira HS?

[concept]

'm using 450 group addresses on one device and 80 on the other.

For this you have tu buy an upgrade for the L1, the standard version supports only 300 GA's

the question is whether the HS will connect to the BAOS 771 KNX IP router, or do I need to buy a dedicated one from Gira.

The HS works with every standard KNX/IP-Router

Today I read that the HS will require routers with security functions in the future.

No idea about this, but I think, this is only when you want to use the secure protocol, let's ask Roman BadSmiley (he is Gira Partner & Betatester)

Who can convince me to buy Gira HS?

I'm not a salesman, I'm only convinced, that the HS is a amazing logic engine. But the L1 is easier to install... your choice


Other option I already mentioned: NodeRed

And another option is the Timberwolf server. I never used it but we have here a very convinced guy: Göran gbglace. Perhaps he can tell you something about GA limitations...

[gbglace]

The Timberwolf-Server is not directly GA concentrated. The communication on the KNX Bus is made by Communication Objects as every KNX-TP device is doing it.

So in the ETS you have the TWS application and currently 2000 CO/KO available and you can choose the DPT you need. And then you can connect one ore more GA on it. The first one is used to send messages to the Bus and this one and all others can be used to receive messages to this KNX object.

Inside the TWS the KNX-objects are used for working with the values from the messages. All objects can be directly connected to other objects from other Systems (KNX <> MQTT / KNX <> Rest-API / KNX <> KNX / KNX <> Logic-calculation / timeseries database).

The most users are creating for everey GA one KNX-Object. But this is not necessary if you realy know how to use the flags and correct GA connections.

So if the TWS is representing a switch actuator in the KNX, you can use one communication object for getting signals to switch (GA 1/1/1) and on the other hand to send the status with GA (1/1/2), you only have to set the correct flags and connect the GA 1/1/2 first.

The TWS has his own KNX-TP connector and can be used as KNX-IP Interface with 25 tunnels.

Reboot behaviour you can define for each logic if it keeps the data or is waiting for new complete input. The behavior of the KNX Objects are to be defined in ETS via the flags.

creating logics you can choose from standard moduls where you can modify the behavoir via some paramter and adding inputs (An AND or OR Modul you can use with one, two or 20 inputs) send by change signal inverting is an option not an extra box etc.

Everey Logic created is directly online. But the inputs can be set manually for simulation in parallel combined with real messaages if you want.

Format transformations are made implicit, giving an integer value as input in an OR function means 0 is false all other values are true. If you need special conversions you can build your own.

The base of the logic are typical electronic moduls. If you know RS-flipflop, multiplexer etc you will like this logic engine. And based on this base modules you can create own custom-logic-moduls.

Effective downside momentum, if you are using ETS 6.3 and higher you are unable to get the TWS Application into your ETS project.

[concept]

Ich wusste es, Göran muss man nur minimal triggern betreffend Timberwolf und schon kommt ein Erguss!