KNX/EIB Double push after "All Off"

[Warichet]

Hi,

I'm having the classical problem where I have to push a Push-Button twice after an "All-Off" command.

In many cases (green), this is solved by adding the actuator's status feedback GA to the actuator's switch object (hearing address)
In one instance (red), this doesn't work. I seem to remember a post about this particular topic, where it was a flag problem, can't find it back.

0/0/17 actuator switch GA
0/0/18 actuator status GA
0/7/6 All-Off GA

Thanks for any hint.

PS: it has been said that there should only be 1 object with the Read flag per GA. Is this a mandatory rule ?

[SebastianFey]

there could be several reasons for this:

- the status isn't sent by the actuator
--- GA is not the sending one
--- transmit-flag is not set
--- the actuator does not actively send on its status-object but expects another device to read from there. this may or may not be changed by a parameter

- the listening object of the toggle-switch does not have the write-flag set

- the listening object of the toggle-switch does not care about telgrams written to it. This is seldom but some application programs do only update the internal state of a toggle-switch, if the status is written to the explicit status-object of the switch. Most of the application programs also use a write to the switch object to update its state.

- coupler or topology problems

- some other reason that i forgot to mention

[Warichet]

Hi Sebastian,

Thanks for the quick and detailed reply.

- the status isn't sent by the actuator

Don't think so. Other channels of the same actuator are OK. I checked with the monitor, seems OK.

GA is not the sending one

Don't undestand, can you elaborate a bit, please ? How can I check it ?

transmit-flag is not set

The transmit-flag of all actuator's status KO are set. I compared the working and non-working devices, no obvious difference.

the actuator does not actively send on its status-object

Don't think so. Other channels of the same actuator are OK. I checked with the monitor, seems OK.

the listening object of the toggle-switch does not have the write-flag set

Don't undestand, can you elaborate a bit, please ? Are the push-buttons involved ?

the listening object of the toggle-switch does not care about telgrams written to it.

Don't think so. Other channels of the same actuator are OK. I checked with the monitor, seems OK.

coupler or topology problems

Don't think so, all participants of this GA are on the same line.

some other reason that i forgot to mention

Maybe you'll remember ...

[SebastianFey]

I checked with the monitor, seems OK.

If you see the status sent in the group-monitor you can obviously exclude problems concerning the actuator not sending any status.

--GA is not the sending one
Don't undestand, can you elaborate a bit, please ? How can I check it ?

A groupobject can only send to one GA. The first connected GA is the sending GA and marked by a "S" in the sending-column. By rightclicking a GA you can set it as sending.

--the listening object of the toggle-switch does not have the write-flag set
Don't undestand, can you elaborate a bit, please ? Are the push-buttons involved ?

The push-button is absolutely involved. The very root of the problem is, that the internal state of the toggle-button is wrong. Example: You press the toggle-button and it sends a "1" - the light goes on. The next time you press it it will send a "0" because it knows the light is on. If the light is now turned off by another GA (most likely a central GA) which is not connected to the toggle-button the internal state of the toggle button is wrong and on the next press it will send a "1" but nothing happens. Only at the next press you will get the desired "0". So you need to make sure, that the toggle-button gets a state update if the lights state changes.

If the write-flag of the toggle-buttons GO were you have connected the status GA is not set, the internal state will never be updated from outside but only by the buttons application program itself when the button is pressed.

[Warichet]

If the write-flag of the toggle-buttons GO were you have connected the status GA is not set, the internal state will never be updated from outside

Thanks, that is the explanation I was missing.

Does the above explanation hold true for a virtual Push-Button, I mean a Visu Push-Button ? No, I guess ... ?

[Warichet]

GA is not the sending one

Still no joy.
I'm checking your recommendations again, one by one.
I'm puzzeled by the pictures below.
On GA 0/0/17, "Spot On", the "S" flag of actuator 1.1.154 KO 18, IS set
On GA 0/0/18, "Spot Status", the "S" flag of actuator 1.1.154 KO 18, IS NOT set

I'm confused .... or is this an abnormal situation ?

[SebastianFey]

If you can see the status group address in the group-monitor (do you?) you should stop looking for the problem on the actuator site. How does the switch look like, please post a screenshot of the associations and the parameters.

[Warichet]

If you can see the status group address in the group-monitor (do you?)

Yes. I'm not very handy with the group-monitor. To do the test, I first switch on the lamp by pressing the PB once. Then I start the group-monitor and I issue an "All-Off". I can see the status GA, so I guess the actuator is duly sending it's status

you should stop looking for the problem on the actuator site.

OK. So far, I was comparing a working and a non-working situation. I've no better method.

How does the switch look like, please post a screenshot of the associations and the parameters.

I attached 2 files. The associations are already in a previous post
I can't see much from those screenshots. Maybe you can ?

About the previous picture, is it normal to see a flag set in one view and not set in another view of the same device, quite disturbing.

What would be the right set-up of the group-monitor in order to troubleshot my problem ? I'm more used with a network monitor where I can easyly start/stop and filter upon criteria.

Thank you for your patience.

[SebastianFey]

I'm a little confused. The application of your switch allows you to use the upper and the lower button of the right rocker as two distinct toggle buttons, but only provides one status-GO. This doesn't make sense.

What are the K, E and T flags in english. (Though I don't think this is a flag related problem, the flags of a status-object are always set to write for a toggle button by default)

[Warichet]

The application of your switch allows you to use the upper and the lower button of the right rocker as two distinct toggle buttons, but only provides one status-GO. This doesn't make sense.

Aaargh
Yes, you are right. I already bumped into this limitation, and forgot about it.
I guess there is no solution for this case. The whole house is equipped with those Merten PB, I love this design, I think it is their best design ever, but are based on old BCU, hence no room for an extra bit in case of split toggle function

What are the K, E and T flags in english.

The flags are at the same place between languages, just the letter changes.
K Communication
L Lecture / Read
E Ecriture / Write
T Transmit

PS: you might add this case to jour collection of potential problems in case of "double push"

[SebastianFey]

I guess there is no solution for this case.

Did you try to connect the status-GA to the switch-GO of the toggle button (and set the write flag)? Most button-application programs can update their internal state by a write to the switch-GO.

[Warichet]

Did you try to connect the status-GA to the switch-GO of the toggle button (and set the write flag)?

For the case at hand, I've re-arranged the stuff as follows:
re-programmed the PB from Toggle to Switch and
moved the seldom used button to the Visu
hence falling back in the classical setup, where it works as expected.
I'll use your clever trick for the next instance of the issue. so I might bother you again...

Many thanks for your kind help.

[Warichet]

Did you try to connect the status-GA to the switch-GO of the toggle button (and set the write flag)?

I'm trying to implement your suggestion, but I'm not sure about how to do it.
Let's take a practical example, again a Merten quad PB
The right rocker is programmed as "Toggle" (instead of switch) hence the 2 PB can be used separately.
The right upper one, KO #6 is assigned to 0/0/43
The right lower one, KO #7 is assigned to 0/0/45

But, as you already mentionned, there is only 1 status KO (#17) for 2 switch KO

How should I do the trick ?

NB: The Write flag (E) is already set on all KO.

[SebastianFey]

Connect the status-GA of the actuator-channel that is switched by GO #6 to this group object. GO #6 now sends (check the sending flag "S") to the switch-GA and listens to the status-GA. By setting the write flag, the state of this GO can be updated from the bus. Note that this does not guarantee that the application programm really updates the internal state of the toggle-switch, but its worth a try.

[PeterPan]

Status-GroupAdress of the Actuator behind the Switching-GroupAdress at Communication-Object of Switch is the solution.

Greez, Peter