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How to combine scene management & presence detection

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    KNX/EIB How to combine scene management & presence detection

    Hello everyone,

    The context is a residential application (1 family house). I have built a home automated house in the past, but this is my first KNX project, so my KNX knowledge is limited and theoretical at this point (no practical realization yet).

    KNX is clearly well suited to manage lighting with presence detection, OR with scenes (where a series of push buttons turn on and off different lighting configurations), but I would like to combine both: specifically, the decision to turn on and off the lights is controlled by a presence sensor (including light sensor & timer), but the decision of which lights should be on and off is determined by a scene (that is selected with wall mounted push buttons, or on a tablet). I have pasted some real life use cases at the bottom to clarify.The goal is basically to limit user interactions to a minimum, i.e. users only need to indicate a change in desired light configuration (classic scene functionality) but don't need to worry about actually turning lights on and off (classic presence detection functionality).

    In a non KNX solution, I would do this with simple logic in a central server, but with KNX, it seems the right design would be a KNX presence sensor that has a notion of scenes (i.e. multiple lighting configurations that can be selected by a telegram), whereby wall mounted push buttons can send a telegram to the presence sensor to tell it which lighting scene to use, and the presense sensor knows which lights to turn on and off (triggered by presence and light level).

    I have searched and looked at a lot of presence sensor documentations and can't seem to find presence detectors that would have this capability.

    Is it common and I'm just not realizing it is when I read the documentation of these sensors?
    Or is my design wrong and this should be realized a different way?
    Or is this just not possible?

    Thanks a lot in advance for your help!

    Eric

    REAL LIFE USE CASES

    (assume a presence sensor is used, not a motion detector)

    LIVING ROOM

    - during the early evening (it's dark outside), you enter and leave the living room multiple times - each time, the bright lights turn on when you enter, and turn off after you have left for some time, as you'd expect from a presence controlled light
    - after dinner, you are in the living room and you decide to switch to cosy scene by pressing the appropriate button (on the wall or on the tablet) - the bright lights turn off and the cosy lights turn on - exactly what you'd expect from a scene solution
    - you leave to go to bed, and the cosy lights turn off ater some time, as you'd expect from a presence sensor
    - in the early morning, when you just woke up and enter the living room, the cosy lights turn on
    - when you feel more awake and are ready for bright lights, you switch to bright scene by pressing the appropriate button - the bright lights turn on and the cosy lights turn off

    BEDROOM
    - during the early evening (it's dark outside), you enter and leave the bedroom multiple times - each time, the bright light turns on when you enter, and turns off after you have left for some time, as you'd expect from a presence controlled light
    - when you're ready to go to bed, you switch the scene from bright to cosy - the bright lights turn off and the cosy light turn on (or stay on, depending on how the previous scene was configured) - exactly what you'd expect from a scene solution
    - when you actually want to sleep, you switch the scene from cosy to night - a scene where all the lights are off (therefore your presence doesn't turn any light on)
    - in the morning, when you want to get up, you switch the scene from night to cosy or bright - the corresponding lights turn on
    - when you leave your room, after some time, the lights are turned off

    #2
    Hi Eric!

    Zitat von tholome Beitrag anzeigen
    In a non KNX solution, I would do this with simple logic in a central server, but with KNX, it seems the right design would be a KNX presence sensor that has a notion of scenes (i.e. multiple lighting configurations that can be selected by a telegram), whereby wall mounted push buttons can send a telegram to the presence sensor to tell it which lighting scene to use, and the presense sensor knows which lights to turn on and off (triggered by presence and light level).
    Maybe that's the misconception: In KNX the presence sensor does not know which lights to turn on/off. The pm just sends a signal on a specific group adress (let's assume 1/2/3) to indicate that it recognized presence within the set parameters (lighning lower than x, right sector, whatever possible in this pm). Multiple KNX actors have set this specific group adress 1/2/3 and then react accordingly. So you should look for actors which allow scenes.

    I really like to have as many functions as possible native in KNX - but if you need complex function it's easier to use a central logic engine. Since you mentioned using a tablet you may need a central device anyhow for visualisation.

    Regards,

    Dirk
    Baubeginn: 1676d. Sanierungsbeginn: 6/2010. Einzug: 9/2014. Fertig? Nie ;-)

    Kommentar


      #3
      Hi Dick!

      And thanks for the quick reply.

      Zitat von Dirk42 Beitrag anzeigen
      Maybe that's the misconception: In KNX the presence sensor does not know which lights to turn on/off. The pm just sends a signal on a specific group adress (let's assume 1/2/3) to indicate that it recognized presence within the set parameters (lighning lower than x, right sector, whatever possible in this pm). Multiple KNX actors have set this specific group adress 1/2/3 and then react accordingly. So you should look for actors which allow scenes.
      Got it. Was still thinking that the concept of scene (multiple configurations selected by a push button) could be in the presence sensor rather than the actuator. Do you or anyone know of a good actuator for scenes that can take the input of presence sensors to turn the lights on and off?

      Zitat von Dirk42 Beitrag anzeigen
      I really like to have as many functions as possible native in KNX - but if you need complex function it's easier to use a central logic engine. Since you mentioned using a tablet you may need a central device anyhow for visualisation.
      My design principle is that no real-time / critical function should be done centrally as much as possible, so that a server failure doesn't cause too much pain and I can take time to restart/replace the server. My previous house is mostly centralized and I'm worried that if the server fails, it's going to be an emergency and it might be very hard to restore functionality (in particular if the server is dead and it doesn't exist anymore).

      Kommentar


        #4
        Hi,

        In my house I only have MDT switch actuators (you'll find the data sheets here: http://www.mdt.de/EN_Switch_Actuators_AKS.html). They offer scenes but I did not yet try that. The feedback for MDT actuators in this forum is really good - the price per output, quality, service and application are all good.
        But others who have more experience might give you more feedback.

        I folllow the same design principle. And I am glad I did so... my electrician tried to convince me to use Loxone as a central server. Nevertheless I selected pure KNX for all important functions and added WireGate / 1-Wire for e.g. temperature measuring and visualization / logic engine. The Loxone alarm clock issue proved me right not to use Loxone as central server.

        Regards,

        Dirk
        Baubeginn: 1676d. Sanierungsbeginn: 6/2010. Einzug: 9/2014. Fertig? Nie ;-)

        Kommentar


          #5
          Zitat von Dirk42 Beitrag anzeigen
          Hi,

          In my house I only have MDT switch actuators (you'll find the data sheets here: http://www.mdt.de/EN_Switch_Actuators_AKS.html). They offer scenes but I did not yet try that. The feedback for MDT actuators in this forum is really good - the price per output, quality, service and application are all good.
          But others who have more experience might give you more feedback.

          I folllow the same design principle. And I am glad I did so... my electrician tried to convince me to use Loxone as a central server. Nevertheless I selected pure KNX for all important functions and added WireGate / 1-Wire for e.g. temperature measuring and visualization / logic engine. The Loxone alarm clock issue proved me right not to use Loxone as central server.

          Regards,

          Dirk

          Ok thanks Dirk!

          Eric

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