How to get rid of KNX and/or Gira

[Pygmalion]

Pygmalion your frustration is understandable.
I do not think that it is reasonable to get rid of Gira components. What I recommend to you (and everybody):
Ensure that everything that is essential runs without Homeserver (or any other Server). This is absolutely possible (and in fact the original Design) of KNX.
This increases the reliability, as you have a decentralized System with only very few single point of failures (remaining: Short circuit of the KNX wires, Power supply failure).
Also, the KNX components are fairly simple, which makes them dead-reliable.

Homeserver - and any other Server - is more complex and thus more prone to failure - so you do not want to rely on it.

Initially, all lights, all shades and both room temperatures were controllable by buttons. However, the bathroom temperature, ceiling heating/cooling and convector on/off were only controllable through homeserver.

Since I have learned that in KNX everything should be controllable without the server, I was pushing the Croatian distributor in this direction. They were very reluctant (!!!) to do that, but I insisted and I even had to propose solutions myself how to do that. I had to tell them which button to add and where to add it in order to control bathroom temperature and I personally installed additional switches in electrical cabinet, which they connected to binary input so that I can switch cooling/heating and turn on/off the convector. I am total non-expert and I must propose and enforce solutions! Anyway, finally they told me that one thing cannot be by controlled by any means but homeserver: the convector ventilator speed. I do not know how important is this, but I am stuck on that one.

Step two could be to familiarize yourself with HomeServer - after all it is a good and reliable system and you have indicated that you are interested to "do it yourself".

For Step one, you tell us, what is today only possible to be controlled by the Visualization of your Homeserver. That will give us a clue of what is set up there. Furthermore, you could think of what failed to work, when your Homeserver was inoparable. That should give us a complete list and we can make suggestions of how to control that without the Homeserver. In the future scenario it would still be possible to control via Homeserver - but that is only an add-on.
E.g. the scheduled switching on/off of your outside light would be controlled by Homeserver. The manual control is possible with your physical switch.

Sigh, it seems that I must learn about KNX everything in order to make it work in my apartment. Fortunately I have technical background/degree, but what if I am just an average user? I would be totally lost.

Another single point of failure that you should get rid of is your service provider. A good service provider is not only able to work with one Brand (even in one project), but for all. The interoperability of Brands is also a key-features of KNX. Except for Hardware related topics, you should also be able to get remote support (at least after a first "presence" appointment for the company to get familiar to your Installation).

Yes! Yes! I am dreaming from the day one to get rid of them, but there are no other Gira distributor in Croatia. How the heck to get rid of them? How to get all necessary data so that someone else could take over? Could someone else took over even if s/he is not distributing Gira?

[Pygmalion]

Thats the understanding of gira, they don't know private enduser as their direct customer so they don't give them support.

If I was KNX producer, I would be concerned about my reputation and I would be concerned how system integrators that install my products work. Gira Germany does not care about its reputation and end users at all. I think that at least a half of my apartment block inhabitants think that Gira is shit.

I personally would never advise anyone to use their products.

[ets3-user]

I still can offer u to have a look at your installation on site and we can together decide what to do to have a working system.
At beginning of October I’m in Croatia to put some installations into operation.

regards Christian

[bkr]

Pygmalion : You see, there's a lot of help in this forum. What I don't understand, though: why don't you help the forum help you? You have been asked numerous times to post a few photos of your electrical installation. Why don't you do that?h
ets3-user has repeatedly offered you personal assistance. Did you contact him?

[Zepp]

It does not seem like you want to make KNX a hobby of yours, so I'd not recommend to get into KNX+Homeserver (HS) programming.
The HS is a good product with a long history, actually it was groundbreaking the time it came out (which does not help you).
But its not the most reliable product, its just a PC after all. There are more robust solutions for the DIN-Rail.
With the ETS-project the homeserver could be replaced by one of these. (Easy if you really only use it for climate control).
It would be helpful to see some pictures of the switches and KNX-devices in the cabinet.

5WG1 110-2CB03

thats actually a Siemens device.

But that does not matter.
Unless your devices are very old, they are normally very robust and just work. Thats true for (nearly) all KNX manufacturers, definitely for Siemens and Gira.

[Pygmalion]

I still can offer u to have a look at your installation on site and we can together decide what to do to have a working system.
At beginning of October I’m in Croatia to put some installations into operation.

regards Christian

Dear Christian, thanks for the offer. Let's keep in contact and in meantime tell me what information I should extract from the current operator.

[Pygmalion]

Pygmalion : You see, there's a lot of help in this forum. What I don't understand, though: why don't you help the forum help you? You have been asked numerous times to post a few photos of your electrical installation. Why don't you do that?h
ets3-user has repeatedly offered you personal assistance. Did you contact him?

One of the problems is that I don't actually live in this apartment. This is a retirement investment and, obviously, I hope to live there once I retire. It is hundreds of km away from my place and is occasionally (currently) rented in order to make it more financially viable. Which makes things quite a bit more difficult. Regardless, tell me exactly what pictures you need - electric cabinets, I suppose - and I will make them the next time I will be there.

[Pygmalion]

There are more robust solutions for the DIN-Rail.
With the ETS-project the homeserver could be replaced by one of these. (Easy if you really only use it for climate control).
It would be helpful to see some pictures of the switches and KNX-devices in the cabinet.

That is very promising, and perhaps exactly what I need, replacing homeserver with a more robust solution (only) for climate control. Could you provide more information/buzzwords? Everything else is already (thanks to my efforts) controlled by buttons.

After I retire and move to that apartment I might consider making a small Raspberry Pi based project (there are Raspberry Pi KNX adapters available) and program everything exactly as I want. Of course, by time I retire RPi might not be around any more, or I could die sooner - this KNX problem is definitely shortening my life significantly. Plus RPi is really cheap to replace in case it dies. The one I play with regularly and works 24/7 lasted five years before I burned it by my mistake doing some fancy project.

I will send you pictures as soon I will be able to take them, I promise!

[Pygmalion]

One digression, HomeServer might be revolutionary two decades ago, but IMHO (I am neither an electrical or an computing engineer) this is now yesterday's technology. Everything gets run by web servers these days. You get a RPi, put a webserver (you can even use Python - Flask for that); users log into web server and control KNX devices. Hardware cost 1% of home server, electricity consumption <10% of homeserver. Running half dozen devices with a PC (!!!?!?!?!???!) is just total waste of energy and technology!

So maybe this is a business idea for those of you who are looking for one.

[starwarsfan]

Hi

One digression, HomeServer might be revolutionary two decades ago, but IMHO (I am neither an electrical or an computing engineer) this is now yesterday's technology. Everything gets run by web servers these days.

Well, you said that you're not a computing engineer and that statement makes the above two sentences obsolete. You completely misunderstood the idea of a server for home automation and a so called "web server". That's two completely different things. As long as such a machine could be used with a web browser, it's some kind of "web server" but what you do with that (or better said, what operation the web server performs in the background) is something else. So the HS might be seen as old school in the sense that it's not possible to maintain it using a browser. But that's also not the idea as it should work completely invisible in the background.

I'm by far no HS fan but you should not compare Apples with Pears.

Running half dozen devices with a PC (!!!?!?!?!???!) is just total waste of energy and technology!

Please read some papers about KNX and how it works. To stay at your example from that point of view, a HS is nothing else than a RasPi: It's a computer.

[GKap]

Running half dozen devices with a PC (!!!?!?!?!???!) is just total waste of energy and technology!

This might be true in your case! If climate control is the only thing what the Homeserver does, then it might be oversized! Climate control can be realized also with native KNX without any server. There might be requirements, where additional logic is neccessary. As I have written before, it is a matter of planning to select suitable components! E.g. from Gira (even if you don't like it) the X1 is available, which ist a small REG-device which also provides logic, visu and has even VPN included. It might be that this would be more suitable in your case!

But we still don't know what logics and visus are implemented in your Homeserver and why your service provider selected an Homeserver!

Regards
GKap

[hyman]

Until we really know what works/doesn't work when the HomeServer isn't there it is hard to tell whether you need it at all. From what you have described so far it seems like a huge overkill...

[Pygmalion]

OK , this discussion has really drifted away from the solution, so I'll summarize everything again:

Description: two room apartment, two blinds, about a dozen lighting units, three temperatures (two rooms + bathroom), audio system [can not say more, never used it], ceiling heater and convector. Gira HomeServer 3, two binary input devices N 262E01 and unknown number of actuators.

Control: after my insistence, everything except ceiling heating and convector can be controlled by pushbuttons, that is without home server. I installed two switches in the electrical cabinet and connected them to one of the binary input devices, and they programmed that binary input device to turn the convector on/off and switch the cooling/heating. But only the home server can control the speed of the fan in the convector depending on needs. At least that's what I was told by the current KNX provider.

Idea: replace the home server with a more robust and cheaper device and get rid of the current KNX provider.

Suggestions:
- Get full documentation on the KNX system from the current KNX provider.
- Take photos of the electrical cabinet (will do as soon as possible, but may take a few weeks).
- Have someone take a look at the documentation/system and make changes that the current provider is incapable or unwilling to make.

Questions:
- is everything above regarding idea and suggestions correct?
- how do I formulate my request to the KNX provider to get all the necessary information (not only actuator addresses, but also programs for binary inputs and home server). Is the following text sufficient: "Please send me KXN project files (ETS folder) and Gira Expert project files for my apartment."
- Which device should be used instead of the home server (X1, something else)?

Is everything clear now? Can you please answer the questions?

[gbglace]

Which device should be used instead of the home server (X1, something else)?

It can be answered if its clear what the HS is realy doing and what caused the short life of them in your installation.

Most Important is getting the necessary data of your KNX installation (ETS-Project file) and take controll of your Gira HS (Gira Expert project file).
The rest will follow, get rid of the current KNX provider.

[starwarsfan]

Hi

The rest will follow, get rid of the current KNX provider.

Exactly! You can be sure, KNX is a nearly "bullet proof" system, used in thousands of business buildings and private houses. The hassle with your current installation is fully understandable but the reason must be the implementation of that installation. You definately should use the offer from some postings above, to let somebody with real KNX knowhow look at your installation.